Anyone who was at the opening ceremony of the 2023 edition of the International Documentary Film Festival Amsterdam (IDFA) remembers what happened that night. A couple of pro-Palestine protesters carried a banner featuring text some persons interpreted as hate speech. The next morning, some trade magazines claimed that the festival’s artistic director, Orwa Nyrabia, had endorsed the killing of Jews.
It was a lie. I was seated in the audience that night and nothing of the sort happened. But coming so soon after the events of October 7, 2023, the atmosphere was heated. The absurd claim grew wings and suddenly all anyone could talk about was whether Nyrabia would still be running the festival at the end of the edition. The suspicion that he wouldn’t make as leader to the event’s awards night deepened as over the next few days of the festival, a couple of pro-Palestine directors withdrew their films from the festival, unhappy about an IDFA response to the kerfuffle. Somehow, Nyrabia survived the onslaught.
At last year’s opening ceremony, a smaller protest again happened but it wasn’t quite as heated. Still, when a few hours before the 2024 IDFA awards ceremony, Nyrabia sat with Film Efiko at the International Theatre Amsterdam café for an interview, he probably knew the issue would come up. As you’ll see below, he was quite forthcoming on the subject.
He was just as forthright on other subjects spoke about, including the nature of his exit from IDFA, which was announced not long before the festival began and the fate of African documentaries at one of the European venues that has supported filmmaking from the continent and about the continent over the years.
Film Efiko: Is it a relief that you are leaving?
Oh, it’s not a relief! I sincerely feel this is the right decision. I feel that if I stay longer, it will become a relief to leave. [Laughs] But it is not yet. So, I’m very proud of myself for finding this wise idea.
So it’s entirely your idea? You know, there’s a rumour after what happened last year.
Maybe if I stay longer, it will not be my idea anymore. I wanted to do it as my idea. [Laughs] Yeah, of course, [I know what is being said] but I made sure that I leave only after a nice edition that is successful, and I think we’re having that now.
Speaking about this edition. Did you think of it as a send-off edition when you were selecting the films?
No. I made this decision only three weeks before the festival. It was announced only a few days after I decided but when I decided, I thought we must announce it before the festival.
I am just not extending my contract. This current contract ends in July next year and I said I do not want to extend so it worked well. The original intention was that I would extend for 6 months and do the next. I just said I don’t want to do one more and I do believe that in many parts of the world, people on top of organisations take too long.
That’s certainly true in my part of the world.
I do come from a dictatorship, you know, so I don’t wish it on anyone. Also, all of the experience of doing this job and trying to let’s say, have continuous discussions on colonialism on anticolonialism in cinema and the way that the west sees the rest of the world, and the relationship between, you know, all of these different issues of racism, whether conscious or unconscious or whatever—it is a very heavy job and I am sincerely proud that we made a difference. That I managed together with the team over these 7 years to make some difference.
But there is a point where I have to say it’s a relay race. I should hand the baton to somebody else to continue.
So, who’s this person going to be?
I don’t know because the decision is very recent; it was just before the festival. There was no time. And as announced by the chair of the festival, this process will be starting after the festival.
Do you have any influence over the process?
No. Absolutely not.
How is that possible? You are Orwa. You must have influence.
I think it would be really incorrect. In a way it’s very important that the organization finds its next stage independently from me and it’s very important that whoever comes after me does not feel me as I shadow.
I’m sure you can avoid that.
I’ll disappear, don’t worry.
Hmm. So, what happens next? We won’t see you walking around?
I will stay in film absolutely. I don’t know how to do other things. If I did, I would. I do feel like I need a good chapter of my life to be an independent person. A troublemaker on my own, responsible for myself, responsible, together with my wife, to put the food on our table. And not responsible for the food on 150 tables. A return to be even more of a troublemaker.
I think the world needs troublemakers. I don’t think I was tamed by this job. But I think I need to spend some time again as an independent person. I have more to say and I have more to do.
But the last time you were a troublemaker, you got into real trouble.
Which one?
You were imprisoned.
Yeah, yeah.
Does Europe provide enough protection against something like that?
Not enough. You can see that Europe democracy is shrinking. When you look at Germany, my new country, when you look at its politics, today, you see that the space of artistic freedom is shrinking drastically when it comes to people who come from the south.
It comes in the form of basically considering that anything that is supporting Palestinian people is immediately labelled as antisematic and banned. The most recent decisions in Germany’s parliament make it not possible for public subsidy or funding to go to anything that is supporting Palestinians.
This was two weeks ago now and it’s an official resolution by the German Parliament that public funding will not go to anything that is supportive of Palestinian people, because they immediately label that as antisemitic.
But who decides whether this is for Palestine or not?
It’s pretty arbitrary in this sense. But in a way, anything that is showing compassion or empathy or solidarity for Palestinians is considered to be against Israel, and they conflate Israel with all Judaism history and you become immediately labelled as antisemitic. And you’re not going to get money. This is new in western democracy and it is a regression that is shocking. And it’s growing now. the same ideas are being discussed in the Netherlands, the same ideas are being discussed in Canada.
The same ideas were in two of your festivals: last year and this year. Both times you were on the stage.
Yes. I’m a magnet.
Publicly, I think you handled it very nicely, but privately, what were your thoughts about all of that? The man who spoke out from the audience at this year’s opening wasn’t happy that you and the festival didn’t use the word “genocide”.
There’s no problem with the word genocide. But the word is becoming, very symbolically, at the centre of the attention in European society and politics. So, when you say it, you are immediately polarising your audience. It gets this negative impact on your connection with society.
On the other hand, I would rather not say it, if that allows me to give the stage to those who can say it. If I say it and hell breaks news, then I cannot give anyone the stage to say it. So, in a way, what I prioritise is the space of freedom, of expression for all the artists and the filmmakers coming to this festival, so I try to moderate my voice, so that I can be supportive. But that’s a problem because, of course, there’s a lot of political power that comes behind this threat of “Do not say the word genocide”—although the word was recognised even by the City of Amsterdam Council last week and the word is recognised by the ICJ and the ICC and all of these international reference points. Still, it is a very problematic word in the mind of the European native population.
I do not accept personally that my life in this world, that my experience with many different causes, including that of the Palestinians, is reduced to a fight over one word. This is at least not my way of handling this. I find this to be too much of a reduction. To me, it’s prioritising taking position or prioritising being ethical. It’s two different things.
It’s like comparing a long-term struggle with martyr-ism. I am not pro-martyr-ism; I am pro-effective long-term serious work through cinema.
In one conversation at the Café Kuyl last year, I recall a small group of film professionals saying that the problem they had with you was that you weren’t choosing a side. And by not choosing a side, you were allowing the pro-Israel faction too much power. That’s why some filmmakers decided to pull out from the festival. You were caught in the middle.
It was very difficult last year, of course. On everybody, including myself. But in principle, I just basically disagree with them. First, my language is not that of activism, my language is one of culture and cinema.
I think the issue was that you had clapped last year when the pro-Palestine group climbed the stage. And then Variety had that headline: Orwa supports…
…the total destruction of Israel.
I thought that was ridiculous. Subsequently, you had that statement that was interpreted as not quite standing with Palestine.
I think we have to have so much more trust together and understand that each one of us has a different style. I am never into slogans again. I grew up in a dictatorship where life was all about slogans and I know how they can be very quickly emptied and I know how activist political approaches lead very quickly to dictatorships and to a worldview that is, so black and white.
It’s not an either/or situation. It’s not you are either with us or against us. There’s complexity. When I express my political position, I do that in a much more complex way and I try to allow those who disagree with me to listen, and I refuse to say my opinion in a way that antagonises those who disagree with me.
To me, the point is it is so much more important that those who disagree with me are compelled to listen, to consider, to think. So, there’s a certain language that comes now with activism in this issue that, to me, calls for war. But I will not subscribe to calls for war. I’ve been in war; I don’t like it.
I would like to create a space for serious people to have serious discussions and to me a film festival has this responsibility. It is in support, but it is in support my way. I stood against the dictatorship. I will not be bullied. I know my position politically. I don’t need too much applause. I’m not running in an election.
The filmmakers in the Palestinian community are so diverse. They are only a few who have a very loud voice and they become as if they are [the only ones].
Some pulled out last year.
I have a very good relationship with many of those who pulled out till today. One of them sent me an email only 3 days ago to say that this experience taught her the true importance of dialogue. And this is ongoing, so if we reach this point within a year after having such a very hard moment, I’m happy.
That brings us to the present. There wasn’t a lot of African films at the festival this year. Do you have a theory as to why that’s the case?
I can never put aside the possibility that we have missed some films. We are a big team and we work in a complex way. We might have missed something. However, the number of films from Africa that we received this year was very low. So, in a way, I think the output of documentary forms from Africa this year is much lower for the past two years.
Now, I do see this as an issue connected to the STEPS project in South Africa that was called Generation Africa. It created a surge over two and a half years, where we were seeing so many more documentary films from Africa than usual. It was a very good project.
Because there is no news in terms of African sovereign support systems for film, you know, so it becomes all connected to European projects. And also Europeans do not really have a support system for African cinema that is robust. They have projects.
Two-year, one-year projects.
Yes. Now, gladly, they announced earlier at one of the panels during IDFA that there will be a Generation Africa II.
That’s good.
Same sponsors. Arte and others. The French German cultural television. But this doesn’t replace the need for robust continuous support. In a way we get this very strange diagram that suddenly there’s a surge as if Africa is on the rise and then you look at the next year and there’s nothing. But it’s not nothing because, also, it’s about quality not only quantity. We have quite a number of very good films from Africa this year. We have Rising Up At Night, from Mozambique we have Smell of Gunpowder.
There’s Battle For Laikipia.
Yeah, we have seven or eight.
Most are in Best of Fests.
We missed a few. When they very few African films coming out, you know that all festivals need them for their tokenism. [Laughs]
Of course. And that’s one of the fears some of us have. If Orwa is leaving, what is the future of African films at IDFA? It seemed like getting African cinema here was something you wanted to do personally. Will the next director feel the same?
I think there are changes that can be undone and changes that cannot be undone. And there are changes in mentality, in how we think. And there are changes about how you understand your responsibility. I don’t think these things can be undone. I hope so.
I hope so.
It’s a big team made of wonderful people. It’s not only the new artistic director. It’s also that something stays with the team. They are good people: they already have been looking for African films. This is what we’ve done together over years and I think I’m optimistic.
I’m going to be shouting next to African filmmakers at all the festivals, including this one. [Laughs] Don’t worry, I’m not going anywhere. If I have a voice in this field, it’s not gonna change. It’s the opposite. It’s gonna be much more. [Laughs] I will be more liberated to shout.
Does this mean you are saying the next artistic director is going to come from your team?
Honestly, Oris, promise, I surprised everybody with my decision to the extent that there was absolutely not a second for anyone to come with ideas. Literally, I told them three weeks before the festival, so you can imagine. The whole festival was in preparation. So, believe me, there’s absolutely no clarity about all of this. Everybody is waiting for the festival to finish so that we start having meetings.
What about the Bertha Fund? It has been very instrumental in helping African filmmakers make projects.
It’s continuing. The director is also stepping down. A new director will be announced in a week or two. The fund is not changing, I promise you. This aspect is hopefully developing and in the same direction.
What has the audience been like this year?
So far, we are at 94% of 2019. And that’s incredible, yeah. I’m overwhelmed, I’m over the moon.
Do you think it’s because you’re leaving? Maybe the audience wants to give you a big send-off.
I think me leaving maybe has a little meaning for the filmmakers but not for the audience. I think it’s a very strong program. People want film. It’s the right time again. People would like to go to a festival to watch documentary films and to connect with the world because people are in a moment where their ethical and political faith is shaken.
This is where we come in, this is where we grow our values. Can we help them find centre, find their balance.
So, for young African filmmakers who feel like there was somebody at IDFA who was very supportive of African cinema but who’s now leaving, how does he/she appear here?
In principle, it is still about first making a good film. The young African filmmaker should remember that—especially in these times when there is all of this tokenism.
Can that ever stop?
I think it’s about us; it’s not about them. There’s an opportunity that you can take. Somebody is looking for a token and you can be that token. I will not judge you. But if you don’t take your work seriously, then even this opportunity to be a token is wasted.
If you make a good film and they look at it just because they want to say, “Hey, we have a film from Africa” then fine, but when the film is good, it will stick and your career will move forward. You know that you will not be forgotten. You are not just token.
You take this token slot and you shape it and shape it because you will leave a mark. So, I judge them for tokenism, but I don’t judge the African filmmaker or from any other underrepresented region if they try to take the opportunity.
What happens after the African filmmaker shows up at IDFA and screens his/her film. What happens next? What are the opportunities?
You have to be open. You have to be connecting with people. You have to check workshops and so on. But, also, you have to connect within Africa because that’s the first launchpad because Africa is so gladly, having a moment with film festivals and film organisations connecting people more than before
Over the past few years, we can see different initiatives and different projects that are creating a regional or a continental launchpad. There’s DocA, FESPACO, Durban. When you look at these different initiatives in different parts of Africa, you can see that there are now networks within Africa that are becoming much more visible for the rest of the world.
Those platforms within Africa will be much more welcoming and friendly starting place that gives you the launchpad and then you go out with that strength of being part of a wider community within Africa. To me, acknowledging these organisations and these spaces that are emerging and supporting them is absolutely a necessity.
